its descibed that space and time is curved or warped. its a a desciption that i've not fully been able to get my mind around. its very abstract me. perhaps you can provide a simplistic answer to help me grasp it more tangibly. and why is time curved? maybe it can't exist any other way. its said said cuved space tells matter where to go. ah! and what are the sacred implications of the time warp/curve geometry (philisophical relationships) . maybe add some models and metaphores. remember i am a layman in this department so do'nt warp my mind too much on the issue. regards
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Re: time space curve ??
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 3:20 PMit's probably something to do with bubbles... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 12:03 PMcurved space is not actually as complex as many geometers think.
geodesic _ is the shortest path in space-time between two points,
and while Q.E.D. calls for all possible paths to be included in the probability description of that trajectory, the prefered path is actually a straight line in _curved_ space-time.
space-time is curved because the presence of matter is not uniform.
very near large mass, time slows... ( it can be said that it requires an infinite amount of time to fall into a black hole. )
like a satellite traversing the solar sytem by 'slingshot' which must account for the gravity of every large planet,
even a single photon traversing a volume of space must account for the gravity of unevenly distributed mass.
the prefered path of the light is that path which also requires the least amount of time to execute, and is called the geodesic.
because photons do not interact with matter (gravity and electromagnetic are different fundamental forces), except in the common variable of time,
we say that the space-time is curved.
and from the perspective of the photon, it always travels in a straight line (conservation of momentum). -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 1:47 PMThe alternative, and more unified concept is of torsional pressure densities being proportionally higher around objects of greater mass...... and affecting the flow rates of other energetic phenomenon that can be described as creating an effect "as if" spacetime "itself" (a self which is more a perceived thing than necessarily an existent thing)...... were "curved". In geometry there are degrees of curvature. The 2D models of spacetime curvature are obviously not Actual. A better model is the torsional field density one.... fully 3D if one envisions gradual and graduated pressure areas (as in the atmosphere... except the pressure density is due to "Flow Density" through 'solid matter').....
Pressure gradience has the same effect as a theoretical timespace 'curvature' in the aetheric torsional field of matter moving through the dimension of timespace (which doesn't "need" to curve around matter). One can say that timespace "spirals" ... as we see it and plot it through the trajectories of astrophysics........ which does curve its way through the pressure gradients of other objects in space. -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 2:18 PMIt is interesting the way these torsion fields have the same scale unfoldments that matter takes: Sphere, Poled, Doughnut, xyz poled and so on.
And also that Stem cells take on these primitive, almost Platonic solid shapes. This is where Kepler and DeCartes where dabbling. But there are also turbulent and fractal topologies, when the behavior of materials displays enormous fields of influence.
Leslie, you made me think of the images of Earth, and other plantary magnetic fields, the way they have layers.
And each Atom has similar fields too I think! -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 3:12 PMYes, 'aetherically speaking' , it is functioning in universal ways, from the very, very small, to the very, very large. Magnetism would appear to be a bipolar looping of the flow, although monopolar magnetism may occur if something like zero point energy is induced in a singular direction. Gravity is an inflow from all directions out of the spacial field surrounding the 'mass' .... that spirals through the atomic spins and out in accordance with the orientations of those spins..... and if sufficient numbers of atoms in a collective mass are Aligned... as things like ferrous metals easily are predisposed towards,.... then we see 'magnetism' in measurable and utilizable manifestations.
If you can imagine a flow dynamic, it is most likely overlayable (and existent) within the complex dynamics of any astrophysical object. One flow does not directly interfere with another unless there is resonant coupling.... and indirectly by way of more than one flow influencing those objects and wave actions that are substantial enough to observe and measure. Most aetheric flows are simply beyond our perception, and the ability of instruments to detect.... except as they are 'stepped down' into the electromagnetic spectrum. Life forms, sentience of lower and higher forms are a manifestation of the more subtle and sublime essence of aetheric flow....... which is a lower expression of higher consciousness.... stepped down from hyperdimensionalities........ according to what i have experienced and witnessed.
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Re: time space curve ??
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 8:00 AM>>it's probably something to do with bubbles...<<
You leave Bubbles out of this... She's in enough trouble already. -
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Re: time space curve ??
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 8:10 AMwell I won't mention the goddess in her bubble bath but...
if you think about how bubbles are full of air and then outside the bubbles is also full of air but then like the soap stuff is somewhere between all that other stuff...
so it's probably like that...
you see...?
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Re: time space curve ??
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 8:18 AMSo what's your analogy? Are you saying that space is the soap film, and the air inside is the past, while the air outside is the future, and the bubble is expanding as it moves from past to future?
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Re: time space curve ??
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 8:30 AMit's just so obvious... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:46 AMWell, then...
Orpheus gets a gold star for the day!
That's a good visual analogy, so long as we bear in mind that the two-dimension surface of the bubble actually reprsents three-dimensional space, and the three-dimensional space of the model represents the fourth dimension, time.
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Re: time space curve ??
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 3:27 PMI don't really know anything about this, but I think the reference you are making is due to 'gravity' curving spacetime.. but, in doing a quick google, it turns out that it is matter which does this, and we call this effect gravity.. or at least that is how I interpreted what I read on wikipedia.. :)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime -
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Re: time space curve ??
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 6:48 PMtime space curvature is alot about energy distribution and mass distribution as well. because like E=MC2 says energy and matter are the same thing...because some balls of mass are on fire(well not literally but are at an immense tempurature due to its massise size and nature), and shoot our energy at incredible rates at the speed of light and many other frequencies. as every star does this they all have meeting points like giant magnetic rings our little metal planet has, but of energy and gamma rays and all that good stuff in space and all around... the time space curve is based on the interaction of all these different but similar energetic forces in the universe ... ever see those things in the malls to steal your coins that are big cone shapes and your coins rolls around and around into a little bucket.... its like tons of those in outer space, but all connected and sometimes some explode like a quasar and blow afew other around it off their axis and everythings ripples thorwing coins all over, creating massive shifts in what we call time/space
universe.nasa.gov/press/200...ulsars.JPG
.... i dunnno if i answered anything, but hell i ramble alot.... i tried
some pretty pulsars give the point quite blunt....
www.solstation.com/x-objects/pulsar.jpg
www.solstation.com/x-object...b4pul.jpg
www.solstation.com/x-object...b6pul.jpg
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Re: time space curve ??
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 7:42 PMAn alternative explanation is that time doesn't exist except where we create it to exist.
there is only now.
Thus we are left with lots of different 'space dimensions' which we navigate through by way of our choices.
one reality creates other potential realities and we appear to be moving through a linear time path.
its all a matter of perspective! -
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Re: time space curve ??
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 8:31 PMalong those same lines, space doesn't exist except where we create it.. there is only 'here'.. :) we perceive both space and time thru our senses.. and construct reality within our own minds...
peace
-cpr -
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Re: time space curve ??
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 11:17 AMwhat i think you guys i think are talking about is personal perspective of time and space....i like to look at it as if i wasn't even there...
for instance there is time.... its not truly measurable, but frequencies of energy take an elapsed moment of "time" to get from one location to another .... the curve of time space i feel is much like that of any magnetic relationships . i mean hell energy and magnets go hand in hand might as well act similarly in similar situations....like time and space which are effects of gravity and attraction, repulsion, and time and space
www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/ic...larexp.jpg
because to be here and now as ram dass says, is a personal monetary self ego perspective of everything.... but in actually, Everything , no matter what, mountain quark photon pear egg....all of them are now and where it is in relationship to everything all at once....
www.astro.phys.ethz.ch/staff/...7_L.jpg
i love this kinda stuff.... ive been trying to understand as best i can the workings of the universe for afew years now.... my head has swelled and feels like its going to explode with all the information , but yet i barely know whats going on around me....
dsc.discovery.com/news/2006...e_zoom.jpg
be excellent....Json -
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Re: time space curve ??
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 1:47 PMthanks bro.. I'll check out those links.. :) -
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Re: time space curve ??
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 3:59 PMthe Earth IS flat ~ space-time is curved ~ we see the Earth as a sphere from far away (like from a spaceship) 'cuz there is more space-time (thus more curvature) between the perceiver & the perceived & flat when close up 'cuz there is less space-time (thus less curving)
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 6:47 AMThat is very clever.
I don't know if it would hold up to the razer... Have to think about it.
I do know that our idea of flat is screwed up. If you build a really straight road, that does not follow the curve of the Earth, it will appear to curve up ward, and in fact will be moving away from the surface of the Earth as it tangentally moves away.
It is interesting to note that all buildings that are "square" are subtly not, because when constructed, we use a plumb bob, to find the center of the Earth, thus all really tall buildings must correct for this widening of the outside corners as it moves away from the center of the Earth, towards space, by ignoring plumb bobs and using verrrry subtle geometry, or, I think, keep the base plan the same mathematically as they go up, but not being able to rely on the plumb...
If you read about the history of mapping, you will hear that the first surveyors discovered that they were getting false plumb bob measurements as they got nearer the mountains.. That in fact the mountain's gravity was pulling the line towards it, throwing off their calculations! -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 7:51 AMvery well said Shadoan...i have heard some things about plum bobs and their unreliability before, but i heard it had something to do with certain plumb bobs being made of attracting metals, that sometimes pulled towards lod stone or any other earth magnets creating sometimes unreliable maps and or construction.....
and mem there is no more space time in outer space than near the earth if anything there is more near the earth than in outer space...the curve speaks of a twist in personal relevance to specific gravities , for if you are going around the sun really fast you would age quicker and feel that time has passed at normal speeds and come back to earth and see that time has barely moved thinking he has gone back in time, but rather its only because of this differential between all space and time... (im not very good at this stuff, ill read up on timetravel in some books, cuz its a hard one to wrap your head around, and i might of said something wrong there....)
but yes it certainly is true that the observer creates the time space for him/her self... and yours is different than mine..... or something like that.... not fully awake yet..... :] -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 8:09 AMand mem there is no more space time in outer space than near the earth if anything there is more near the earth than in outer space..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you misunderstand me ~ when someone is far from the Earth, that person perceives more space-time between them & the Earth than someone who is standing directly on the surface of Earth ~ with less space-time comes less perceived curvature ~ what I am saying is that the Earth seeming round is a property of curved space-time, not an inherent property of the Earth itself
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 8:34 AMThe earth and celestial bodies are spheres, much as a bowling ball is a sphere.... without the need for space-time warping..;... which is actually a misconception by Einstein. If you want to understand physics, you have to learn about Aetheric Torsional Hyperdimensional Physics...(googletime).. which explains gravity and "apparent" spacetime curvature in much simpler terms.... as being a consequence of vortexual mechanics................hydrodynamic flow in the aetheric continuum.
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 9:07 AMI'm confused...
so where is australia...?
and with flatness would that mean that the earth/sun thing relationship is no longer like a pig on a spit being barbecued but maybe more like a succession of suns on a wheel that get switched on and off maybe... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 3:29 PMdamn Leslie... good point.... i love this kinda physics, but im not very good with math or technical terms, rather i feel it so its much harder to explain in any real technical way .....
....Good Game...
austrailia is here...
www.globalcultures.net/worldb...ety.jpg
where that ships headed...
:] -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 3:42 PMwow I imagine like flushing toilets must be like weird downunder and how do they keep the water from falling out of the swimming pools and stuff... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 9:39 PMShells spiral the opposite way in the southern Hemisphere.
Does the toilet flush in an opposite spiral too ? -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 10:15 PMpeople.tribe.net/c8d7e521-...2e45b/blog
*Walks off singing*
"Synchroniiiiiciiiittyyy, that's whaaat youuu aaaare!"
8) -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 2:01 AMand what happens at the equator... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 2:15 AMThanks Nick,
I dropped a question for Celestine in regards to CCW spin...
No vortex at the equator Orpheus. -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 2:37 AMcurious...
I wonder how far one has to go either side before a vortex happens again...
and if equatorial snail shells are cones rather than spirals... -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 12:24 PMGood question,
but I believe it has to do with the species as much as location.
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Re: time space curve ??
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 12:33 PMya know, planetary storm vortexes are beautiful things....
www.physorg.com/newman/gfx...niseesi.jpg
these are beautiful too....
www.badastronomy.com/pix/bab...veil.jpg
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 2:06 AM"Shells spiral the opposite way in the southern Hemisphere.
Does the toilet flush in an opposite spiral too ?"
The coriolis effect is an insignificant force on your toilet bowl, it has more to do with the direction the jets in the bowl are facing.
www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Ba...riolis.html -
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Re: time space curve ??
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 2:33 AM
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Re: time space curve ??
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 4:28 AMi've been so buisy i almost forgot about this thread. let me catch up to the present time.
mary said that >> we see the Earth as a sphere from far away (like from a spaceship) 'cuz there is more space-time (thus more curvature) between the perceiver & the perceived & flat when close up 'cuz there is less space-time (thus less curving)
thats so simple and logical. as you zoom in on somthing rounded like the moon, distance and curvature decrease; and vice versa... you get the wide angle look. many questions pop out of that, and things get paradoxical. lets play with the concept.
what would a flat earth picture look like? how would you explain that you can walk around the earth and arive at your starting point? perhaps an earth model would repeat itself like the rings of a tree.
i would not say the flat earth concept does not holds entirly true; partly tho. i think the earth would kind of be squashed in reduced time with one side flat. bare with me.
i ask how can anything at all be observable with no time and space? my answer would be that its not. why, because you can't observe anthing without distance. everything would vanish INTO YOU because with no time their would be not distance between you and anything. everything would vanish into a point.
so how is an imagined world, or deam word, or the 4th dimesional world observable. i would say that when you go beyond space and time and everything vanishes into you, your conciousness - thought and emotions - constructs a world around of dark matter matching the contours of your conciousness, just to make thing tangible again. and dark matter does not follow the laws of physical matter. -
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Re: time space curve ??
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:31 AMhow would the picture around you change if time and space was gradually reduced to nothing, and you clearly observe what is happening standing on the earths surface?
i will answer my own question here. now i am really guessing, but so did einstiene. i would say the earth will begin to flatten out and everything around you will begin to zoom in on you...reducing curves and distance. the earth from a distance will have a squshed eliptical look with one side flat.
but when the earth is flat the process does not stop there. the surface continues to 'bend' but upwards in a concave shape. it stretches, it compresses, it distorts. as time is reduce further the earth will form a cup like shape. what is happening? the earth is panicking because its trying to swallow itself .and the thought scares it to death. yes to death.
the process continues. you on the earths surface will eventually be cupped inside a hollow earth bubble (flat earths! hollow earths! yes!). continuing the earth bubble will loom in on you completly and implode on a single point swallowing you into that point at the point of no time. and so the earth dies. there you go -
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Re: time space curve ??
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:43 AMis that like bubbles...? -
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curvature, tangent planes, force and acceleration of gravity
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:34 PMthis is actually an excellent geometry problem, requiring a little bit of basic calculus to understand.
??? WHY does the acceleration due to gravity appear to be a constant ~10 meters per second per second near the surface of the earth, while many kilometers above the surface, there is effectively zero gravity ???
Consider that if the Earth was flat, perhaps a disk may thousands of kilometers in diameter.
Near the Center, the force of gravity is caused by the attraction exchanged between massive particles. The force is perpendicular to the plane and its full force on those particles in the Neighborhood is organized without competition.
but considering particles at the Edge of the Neighborhood of the Center, much of the force is actually at a right angle to the displacement from the Center, and that cancelled by the particles on the opposite Edge of the Neighborhood.
that is to say again, the original force is along the hypotenuse instead of the vertical difference, leaving only the sin of the angle in the direction of consideration, while the cosine components cancel eachother out from the other side. so that, the further away from the Center, the less force in the direction of consideration toward the Center.
Only in the case of an Infinite plane in space,
would acceleration be fixed (and not a function of the cube), for any given density and thickness of the plane. in reality we see this in approximation on Earth near the surface, as the constant acceleration 32 ft/sec^2 and away from the surface the field strength falls off.
in fact, it is the finite size of Earth, and the distance to the horizon (20 miles at sea),
that causes gravity not to cause constant acceleration toward the Center from any distance,
but actually to allow objects with sufficient velocity to escape. -
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Re: curvature, tangent planes, force and acceleration of gravity
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 9:40 AM""??? WHY does the acceleration due to gravity appear to be a constant ~10 meters per second per second near the surface of the earth, while many kilometers above the surface, there is effectively zero gravity ??? ""
Is it because your distance away from the earth is great and the Force of Gravitational attraction is goverened by the equation:
F = GMm/R²
R is your distance between two objects
M is the earths mass
m is your mass
G is your gravitational constant
Its an inverse square law, so the force of attraction between two objects is inversly proportional to the square of the distance between them. Considering that m is miniscule next to M regarless if its a rocketship or a human being, the accelleration appears constant. -
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Re: curvature, tangent planes, force and acceleration of gravity
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 11:20 AMmy bad. the correct proportion is inverse by the square...not the cube.
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Re: time space curve ??
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 6:10 AM:Last night on 50x Salvia, I felt the shadows and the light
In fact, I got tangled up in them...
So I can see what ya mean...
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