psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

topic posted Sun, April 10, 2005 - 5:05 PM by  jOn
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I've often wondered if the very best produced sounds of this genre are based on sacred geometry. The sounds often conjur incredible mandalas and matrices in my head/body/soul - no doubt the focused intent of the wizards behind the laptops creating these pieces.

When broken down into their components - bass, synths, high-hats, breaks, builds, all otherworldly and deeply resonant - there's definitely a mathematical quotient. And, given the psychedelic/spiritual intentions of the producers, it's not a leap to think they may have cracked some kind of sonic code to open doorways of perception.

Anyone with similar musical/electronic experiences?
posted by:
jOn
offline jOn
Los Angeles
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Sun, April 10, 2005 - 9:14 PM
    well it depends on how you want to discover sacred geometry in the music. It could be sonic and related to the actual vibrational qualities of soundwaves, or it could mathematical and related to melodies and harmonic scales, or it could be structural/rythmatic and so be in the composition and arrangements.

    EDM opens that door because of its insistent rythmatic structure and syncopatation, 4/4 timing is already harmonic so 'keeping' time with that puts one in a harmonic relationship (meaning things connect and relate in a fractaline way, at many many scales) with the song.

    _A
  • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Wed, April 20, 2005 - 3:35 PM
    Ever hear of a book about Goedl, Bach & Escher ?
    Goedl applies mathematics to Eschers art & Bachs music. I haven't read it myself in years but from what I remember, I think it would be easily applied via geometry.
    Carlton
    • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

      Sun, April 24, 2005 - 9:36 PM
      It is called 'Godel Escher and Bach'. Kurt Godel is a mathematician and doesn't apply anything to music. The writer of the book, Douglas Hoffstader relates Godel's incompleteness theorem to feedback loops in Escher paintings and ties it all into the structure of Bach's fugues. This is all ultimately connected to the nature of consciousness, but from a more mechanical, cognitive science perspective.
      Psy-trance, in my opinion, is mostly about synchronization. The bassline synchronize the listeners brainwaves to the music. The sounds are then synaesthetically moved around the entrained listener relative to the speed of the music. The result is a more visual, multidimensional music that plays with the structure of space through time. Musical structure can be formed around the listener's expectation which can only occur within highly structured music. Sacred geometric patterns within this 'visual' music structure naturally emerge in a 4/4 beat structure. I am sure much can be explored about intentional use of these sacred geometries, but I am confident many Psy producers have an intuitive understanding of sacred geometry in both sound and vision to allow intuition to manifest these shapes within the music. Just a thought.
      -Brian
  • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Tue, April 26, 2005 - 8:25 AM
    I also read years ago about the entrancing nature of 16th beat rhythms in 143 BPM music. Usually psy trance basslines are those rumbling 16th beat structures that allow the layering of spacial sounds (through time as Brian suggests). I believe in psy trance it is mostly intuitively achieved.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Sun, May 1, 2005 - 9:47 PM
    I think there is definately a potential for electronic dance music (especialy psytrance/psytechno) to become a powerful tool for contemplating the higher mysteries of the universe. Perhaps more of a conscious integration of mathematical principles into the music and a conscious arrangment of geometric models and mathematical imagery in the visual enviornment can unlock this potential.
    Deco artists such as Brahma (TIP records) -www.brahmafluorescentart.com/
    has beautifully integrated mathematical objects and pattern
    into his giant UV backdrops.

    As for music, artists such as Midi Miliz make complex rythmns that stimulate my mathematicaly sensitive ears.

    Lets talk more about this ok?

    Dan
    • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

      Mon, May 2, 2005 - 9:53 PM
      wow... this is tastey. yes please... let's.

      what's everyone's call on the most universal trance inducing bpm? i've always thought it was 120 which i recall once being touted as the heartbeat of a fetus. and 1+2=3d

      4 on the floor causes me to think of process and relates to 11:11.

      the relationship of SG and sufi dancers is also intriguing. check out this link:

      www.meru.org/Sufi/rnddance.html
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

        Tue, May 3, 2005 - 8:17 AM
        Interesting... I think induced trance state frequencies vary by individual, and all trances differ, but the 120 area has always worked for me to a sleepy chill; whereas 144 is a bit hyperactive. Hofstadter's book has a big following. Lots of classes taught to it too. Here's www.egodeath.com/geb.htm the complete table of contents (that site is fun); and www.cs.indiana.edu/~tanaka/GEB/ is a good FAQ on the book.
        • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

          Thu, May 5, 2005 - 10:12 AM
          The beat of the music directly entrains the brainwave frequencies. So, shamanic drumming is at about 240 bpm which equates to about 6 cycles per second. This is the theta brainwave state which is common in trance states or meditation, and definately is a huge factor in the ability of shamans to "travel" on the beat to other levels of reality. Psy-trance is at about 140-150 bpm which is around 2 cycles per second. This is below the theta brainwave states (4-7) and would correspond to alpha levels in the brain. Alpha is usually the sleep state, but with psy-trance thumping, people don't often sleep.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

            Thu, May 5, 2005 - 12:27 PM
            When drumming I notice that once you get the beat grooving at a higher rpm, you can start to drop out beats, so you're only playing every other or every third, and the virtual bpm is still at the higher rate.
            I think it may be the virtual or subliminal beat may be what has to sync with theta rhythms ... rather than the overt beat
            Lush sound waves and complex patterns can also engender those virtual beats
            So, the drum beat is like the finger pointing at the moon of inner rhythm ...
            • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

              Thu, May 5, 2005 - 1:08 PM
              That dropping out the higher bmp beats works when you are dancing to it too. (hi, I'm new...)
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

                Thu, May 5, 2005 - 4:02 PM
                Let us not forget to mention the harmonics, and the sub bass infrasound, adding both constructive and destructive interference to the strongest slowest base frequency.
                • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

                  Sun, May 8, 2005 - 10:40 AM
                  hi dusty.... yayy!

                  olas, would you mind expanding on your post.. i love the vernacular...'specially "harmonics" but i'm confused a little.

                  thanks,
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

                    Sun, May 8, 2005 - 1:39 PM
                    All vibrating systems have natural harmonic frequencies and fundamental resonances. All molecules and fields vibrate. Electromagnetic and acoustic vibrations from light+sound can effect all persons and things within a certain radius, creating sympathetic vibrations and harmony. Some of those physical radiating objects, like you, can change their natural harmonic frequency through meditiative trance. A biofeedback loop builds through music, dance, and the natural focus of attention to the self-soothing vibrations within trance and musical movement. Wonderful music can be composed specifically to facilitate this process of conscientiously allow yourself to join the molecular freak-dance of all things. I think it is best when we base this music on natural frequencies which we can detect from major (most massive) elements within our natural environment, such as the Earth (the Earth has its own fundamental resonance of 7.8 Hz), the Moon, Sun, etc. We are naturally affected by these at all levels of organization of the organism that is us; from the moment of genetic realization of the DNA representative of you, all until now and beyond. Time/space related resonances also are involved, as is natural resulting big-bang chaotic background electromagnetic "noise." Fascinating things to think about.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Sun, May 8, 2005 - 10:40 PM
    Yeah man I definitely agree. We should find a way to graphically represent the audio proportions. See if there are sacred geometry patterns...

    peace,
    core
    • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

      Mon, May 9, 2005 - 8:32 AM
      I love the i-tunes computer graphic program that plays off of whatever music is on. when you play psytrance, it does an amazing job of visualizing the sounds in a fantastical way...and yes, there are patterns and mandalas galore.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

        Mon, May 9, 2005 - 10:55 AM
        "I've often wondered if the very best produced sounds of this genre are based on sacred geometry. The sounds often conjur incredible mandalas and matrices in my head/body/soul - no doubt the focused intent of the wizards behind the laptops creating these pieces. "

        www.lucidquest.com
        • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

          Mon, May 9, 2005 - 5:31 PM
          R Kuan... thank you for this link..have you or anyone you know tried their products?

          olas... thank your for this.. a nice clarification. i only discovered sacred geometry about 3 weeks back.. i'm trying to remember the rest as fast as i can so please bare with me and feel free to correct my info.

          if i understand correctly, all existence is made up of vibrational patterns or wavelengths. the wavelength for this universe is 7.23 cm... or OM. Meaning if we average all the wavelengths of all the objects in this universe it comes out to 7.23 cm. Interestingly, this is also an average length is all over our bodies such as between our eyes... pupil to pupil, the tip of our nose to tip of the chin, the distance across our palms and between our chakras. The chromatic music scale is made up of 12 notes plus a 13th which begins the next octave. Between these notes are 12 major overtones and even more minor overtones between those. Each dimension or level of existence also has it's own average wavelength and can be accessed by changing our vibrational patterns to the other dimension. This gives us a minimum of 144 dimensions to explore and quite probably many many more.

          So, my guess is that music such as trance has the potential to shift some of our senses to other dimensions for a short time and many djs instinctively create these soundscapes, giving us the sense of inter-dimensional travel. And this also suggests the possibilty of a dj who remembers how to move between dimensions coming forward and consciously giving a massive number of people these secrets.

          hope this makes sense... i've been deep into this for the last few weeks and my head is sure enjoying the spiral.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

            Mon, May 9, 2005 - 5:33 PM
            I am waiting for the product. Once I receive it, I will report back (honestly) what I think. There are testimonials on the link of those who have tried the product.

            But, I'll let you know.
  • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Tue, May 10, 2005 - 2:20 PM

    Here is a link to a great article discussing Sacred Geometry and sound.

    www.spiritofmaat.com/archive...iams.htm

    cheers, ~Jamie
    • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

      Wed, May 11, 2005 - 8:13 AM
      This is all very fascinating! Keep it coming!
      • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

        Wed, June 1, 2005 - 10:36 PM
        allright.. i'm back to keeping it coming... sacred geometry's got me coming so the least i can do is share...

        the music scale as related to 8 chakra centers;

        do- base - survival
        re- sacral - creative
        mi- navel - willpower/ego
        (half step) - wall
        fa- heart - love
        sol- throat - logic
        la - 3rd eye -imagination
        (half step) - wall
        ti - crown - spiritual
        do - next dimension
        repeat in new paradigm.

        the half steps represent the experience of awareness changing direction. a kind of wall which forces a change of direction. these walls are to block our climb to the next chakra to insure that we've fully mastered the previous chakra energies.

        energy moves primarily through the body clockwise (female) or counterclockwise (male). there is a change of polarity between the 4th and fifth chakra. this is due to awareness passing through a void.

        i could show you this with shapes also.... but i'd need a barnapkin.

        we could just chatter and chatter about this fahhhhever... i'll try and get back with some notes from Gurdjieff's take on all this when i re-remember it.

        hugscendence,
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

          Wed, June 1, 2005 - 11:40 PM
          Hey you guys, I'm actually a producer... a good one.

          Psychadelic trance does follow certain basic patterns that I would say are related to 'sacred geomtry.'

          However, if you learn to apply these principles to ANY music you can find the greater constructs still BASED in sacred geometry.

          In this way psytrance can be viewed as a simplification of these principles in music... which is not to say this is a bad thing -- simplicity is not always a bad thing.

          Psytrance relies heavily on slowly changing filters and effect settings. When listening to it and first really 'following' it, it sounds incredible -- how did somebody create something that matches up so perfectly yet is always changing?

          However, when you learn how to use these effects as a producer and monkey around a bit -- it all makes sense mathematically and the patterns in psytrance are all fairly 'obvious.'

          *****

          I remember driving in a car back home from a psytrance party in 99. Actually, it was Earthdance 99 and I was coming down off of acid - we both were. We had been hearing psytrance for the past 10 hours or so and I could still hear it in my head. At some point during the ride he said to me

          'Psytrance is really easy to make up in your head, isn't it?'

          'Yeah... how did you know I was thinking that?'

          'Well... I think everybody does.'
          • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

            Thu, June 2, 2005 - 7:31 AM
            nice..

            please tell me more about these obvious patterns and the mathmatics behind it.

            i sorta feel like the whole point of sacred geometry is it's universally accessable and simple language.

            peaz,
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

              Thu, June 2, 2005 - 5:13 PM
              Well... they are actually very simple.

              When using a filter on Logic pro, you are given parametric options on a knob to twist. This knob controls how long or short the effect takes to run it's course.

              It can read

              1/8, 1/2, 2/1 bars etc etc --- many different time signatures.

              Let's say you make a psytrance synth line -- I'll draw it out for you.

              *** * *** ****** * *** ****** *** * *** ******

              See the pattern? Good. Imagine what it sounds like.

              Now... you take that synth channel and you add a filter effect. Let's say you set the parameter to '2/1' bars

              This is where it get's confusing:

              The filter is a slowly changing effect that is now slowly changing the way the pattern sounds as time goes on. A 2/1 setting would imply that the pattern of the filter will go full circle every 2 bars... you can easily hear this in psytrance all the time... but commonly it will be 8/1 bars.

              Then, you can take some of the hi-hat drumming samles and give it a 4/1 setting. That way it will run on a similar pattern and line up to the synth line... however, it will follow a shorter range and create a smaller radius of change... not unlike 'sacred geometry.'

              This is all fine and good -- if this fascinates somebody sober or on acid, have fun with it. I was into psytrance for a good two or three years and it was fun to dance to until it got completely predictable and repetative for me.

              Thing is this:

              Although psytrance might incorporate elements of sacred geometry, that merely makes it a very confined genre. Sacred geometry is cool, but it IS the building blocks of all of the universe and therefore isn't necessarily too interesting on a fundemental level once you embrace these concepts.

              Personally, I'm far beyond psytrance and hope others will evolve to a point where this type of thing no longer really interests them. However, if you're still into it who am I to say to stop listening...

              ... just don't go off the deep end -- that's all I ask.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

                Thu, June 2, 2005 - 5:20 PM
                Opps... I screwed up the pattern... I suck... should be

                *** * *** ****** * *** * *** ****** * *** * *** ****** * *** * *** ****** *
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

                  Thu, June 2, 2005 - 5:25 PM
                  I'll also add the following:

                  A universal language is only useful if there is something to communicate. While semi-complicated patterns of sacred geometry might prove on some fundemental level that humans are intelligent life forms, it doesn't prove a whole damn lot.

                  If we were to take a more complicated beat structure (say Drumnbass) and go crazy with filters etc, the aliens would undoubtably still understand our intelligence if listening.

                  Music is a funny thing -- it's cool to be dancing with people who are all sharing the same wave-length. However, people can move far beyond the psytrance wave-length as it becomes predictable to them. Perhaps that's how other intelligent life forms would feel about it.

                  *****

                  Some people say psytrance is the best music to listen to while tripping. Others say Jimi Hendrix. I personally don't really trip too often anymore, but if I do I would probably just like to listen to nature... or maybe Iron and Wine.. I really like them.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Thu, June 2, 2005 - 3:14 PM
    Yippee!!! I'm not the only one!

    I had a suspicion that this was going on at some level and I have been intrigued. I can tell which songs are along these lines, I can be in a great conversation and then it's like I can't hear anything else but the music, and then it's a matter of seconds before I am on the dancefloor.

    I'm on a mission. I want to learn how it's done. I have ideas that won't go away, I just don't have the skills yet to make them reality. Sacred Geometry is one of the subjects I want to study. Vocal and vibrational manipulation, BPM formulas, and positive subliminal insertions are also skills I want to learn.

    Can anyone recommend good books or websites I can research?
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Thu, June 2, 2005 - 6:40 PM
    A friend sent me this link a while back. I must confess I haven't listened yet but I take his word for it. Although he said the quality sucks I think the idea is cool.

    www.fractaliamusic.com/music.htm

    peace,
    charlie
    • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

      Sat, June 4, 2005 - 12:05 AM
      samualroy,

      thanks for the lesson. your knowledge is big if sometimes a bit absolute.

      your stance toward psytrance and it's dancefloor feels a lil' musically elitist... so i'm wondering... have you had much experience with a thriving underground Outdoor psytrance scene?

      and tho a personal question.. i'd be interested in hearing what sort of life issues you were dealing with when you were into psytrance.

      thanks again for your thoughts.

      hugcentric,
      • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

        Sat, June 4, 2005 - 9:08 AM
        goodmorning,

        here is a breakdown of the 13 chakra system in relationship to the chromatic music scales. i pulled this from a response i post on the chakra tribe

        (silence)
        1 - base, relationship, survival, cooperation, C
        2 - sacral,sex, creativity, C#
        3 - navel, willpower, ego - D
        4 - solarplexus, D#
        5 - lower heart, healing, unconditional love for ALL - E
        (half step or wall)
        6 - higher heart, love for parts of reality ie. goylfriend, F
        7 - throat, expression, sound, F#
        (change of polarity)
        8 - chin, G
        9 - nose, G#
        10 - 3rd eye, intuition, imagination, A
        11 -pineal/pituitary, A#
        12 - crown, spirit, B
        (half step or wall)
        13 - godhead or the next thing, C into silence
        (silence)

        You can find these chakra points topographically on your body by first measuring the points between your nose and chin. try using a classic torah shape with the hand...do the walk like an egyptian... now lie back on a flat surface. starting at the perinium you can progressively measure up your body each point being equally distant from the previous.

        infohug,
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

        Sun, June 5, 2005 - 5:30 AM
        "your stance toward psytrance and it's dancefloor feels a lil' musically elitist... so i'm wondering... have you had much experience with a thriving underground Outdoor psytrance scene?"

        It's an opinion -- you can think I'm elitist if you want and it really doesn't bother me. I was very much involved in the Inertia Labs parties in the NW in 99-01 or so... so yes, I have big experience in a 'thriving' underground psytrance scene.

        "and tho a personal question.. i'd be interested in hearing what sort of life issues you were dealing with when you were into psytrance."

        That's not an easy question to answer. I was 18, I didn't know half of the shit that I do now at 23, but I didn't learn it all in during the short period in which I figured out I was 'over' psytrance. I haven't been 'into' psytrance for quite a while and there wasn't a defining moment in which I realized I was 'done with it.'

        Things generally aren't so simple....
        • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

          Sun, June 5, 2005 - 9:27 AM
          no.. never so simple..... or is it us who make it complex.

          i posted this and later felt i may have not made it clear that i'm not dissing your opinion... although i will admit to a certain grainofsalt attitude toward anything which comes from the mind.

          i didn' realize your age and see that this question is pretty loaded... the amount of drama in my life during my late tweens til about late 20s was vast and farreaching.

          i've learned this much and you might enjoy contemplating this... if you "knew" half the shit you knew 5 years ago... imagine all the shit to come in the next five. how many things you thought you once "knew" turned out to be false..

          it's not our fault tho.. the fuckers started messing us up long ago with tales of santaclause and an old white man with a flowing beard way up high looking down on us sinners.

          hugswitch,
  • Re: psychedelic trance and sacred geometry

    Mon, August 3, 2009 - 5:39 AM
    The first time I learned about sacred geometry (in this physical incarnation) was about 7 years ago... I was in a friend's recording studio and picked up the book 'sacred geometry' by robery lawler...
    My friends didn't know I was reading the book (I was in a room away from the actual studio equipment..

    Within a few minutes they came in excited and told me to look at the wave they had created on the computer screen.. It was a perfectly balanced 3D looking geometric wave... no-one has asked me to look at such a wave before or since!!

    Oh yeah, the ET/higher mind communication started then too.. lol

    everything is waves of the same energy, 'all' interacting with 'all'.. Providing references for references for now.

    I sometimes lay out song structures based on phi/fibonacci... I have no doubt that the harmonics of certain trance music is SG inspired.. you can hear a certain magic in the frequencies of a lot of tunes which defy linear analysis!

    peace
    nick

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